Kim Pemberton (Vancouver Sun) – The rookie North Vancouver RCMP officer who was stabbed after he approached a suspicious vehicle off Mount Seymour Parkway Wednesday was able to arrest the man himself, after struggling with him and using his taser on the 61-year-old Vancouver resident.
Police are not naming the suspect, but have recommended crown lay a charge of attempted murder against him.
The officer, who has only been on the force for six months, had to have about 20 stitches to close a large gash on his arm. There were also two marks on the body armour he was wearing at the time, said Cpl. Peter DeVries.
“This could have turned out much worse for the officer and the man. Although our officer was seriously injured at least no one was killed,”
DeVries pointed out when officers are threatened with a knife that could easily cause death they are justified to use lethal force if they deem necessary. In this case, the officer who is in his 20s, chose to deploy the taser he was carrying instead of his firearm.
DeVries said while tasers are available for officers not all of them carry one or are trained.
“It (the stabbing) has been a scary thing for us. The other officers are shaken up. It has had a strong effect on our officers. Our officers are out there every day where they could be put in a life and death situation. We owe a tribute to them and thanks, particularly on Remembrance Day, for the risk police officers take.”
He said the wounded officer is home recovering with his family and hopefully he will be able to return soon to active duty.
“He’s well trained and very fit,” said DeVries. “He did a pretty amazing job to defend himself when he was badly injured and bleeding. He was still struggling with the suspect but had him under arrest before backup arrived.”
The incident happened Wednesday around 10 p.m. in the 1600-block of Emerson Court. Police had been called to the area after a resident in the area noticed a suspicious car. When the officer got out of the car to approach the suspect he charged at him with the knife.
Asked if the suspect could have a mental illness, DeVries said he couldn’t answer but noted that question and more information around the circumstances of the incident will come out eventually in court.
I don’t think those issues were the ones traveling through his thoughts at the time jg. It is quite possible events unfolded in a slightly different manner than first reported. The comment on the article; http://www.nsnews.com/news/Mountie+stabbed+gets/3826075/story.html
indicates he did follow his training. I always am a little circumspect as to the actual press release, the re writing by the papers, and the early comments by all involved.
Interesting questions Calvin, I can see where you would have gotten a pause on the 13 yr old.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Calvin, does your PDT cadre recognize the inherent reluctance of some persons to actually kill another human being? Is it not true that successful conditioning trains officers to overcome their natural aversion killing or severely maiming other people?
DT
In the class room setting I would ask the cadets if they could use deadly force. Some would immediately say yes. Others would reflect on the question. That was my goal. We would have a discussion then everyone would reflect on the question. I told them to think about it now, not when your being shot at or attacked with a knife.
I would then ask the question; “could you shoot a 13 year old”? That was a shocking question to most of the cadets. I further explained that you may get a call of a school shooting. Upon arrival the police officer may see a 13 year old killing his classmates with a rifle.
My point was that they should think about what it means to carry the responsibility of walking around with a loaded gun.
The presence of more police officers rather than less is a good thing. However mistakes can still occur for that very reason. There have been cases where arrested persons were not searched properly because everyone assumed the other police officer had did the search.
I often wonder if the taser situation at the Vancouver Airport would have been handled and ended differently if there were one or two members rather than four.
Street police work is a complex process.
I suggested to the cadets to purchase the below book.
On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society [Paperback]
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (Author)
Calvin Lawrence
Hot debate. What do you think?
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A couple of excellent points. I was unaware that the WCB in British Columbia had such a regulation. Its no wonder that the Surrey BC study on replacement of the RCMP included an immediate one time increase of over 20 percent (approx 150) in new officers to be realized for a municipal force. The RCMP rarely has two person vehicles as a matter of course except for field training and some specialized units. One could opine that if a two person attendance was made in any initial complaint, there would be less of a tendency to cause trouble.
The other point, the awarding of recognition to those officers who had a welcome outcome to some dangerous encounter while actually going against training. In your explanation of the mental processes Calvin, does your PDT cadre recognize the inherent reluctance of some persons to actually kill another human being? Is it not true that successful conditioning trains officers to overcome their natural aversion killing or severely maiming other people? It breaks down to a simple matter of Pavlovian stimulus / response: threat / fire. Realizing of course that if you truly feel imminent death all bets are off. We all like a warm and fuzzy outcome and even the media get on board. Same situation, textbook response and everybody is on the other side. An unfortunate facet of police work.
One other cogent observation made by boomer, “This is another reason why city police forces like to hire members; they are self-taught to think on their own in serious situations rather than having to rely on a partner all the time.” I think that this fact is sometimes overlooked, as small communities often only have one RCMP officer on shift at any one time. A situation which would not be tolerated by any union / association municipally.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I am just thinking out loud here, and am not saying this is the case, but I am wondering if the member in question opted for less deadly force because he is afraid the force won’t back him up or the media will crucify him. Maybe he was afraid he couldn’t live with himself.
I also don’t mean to play monday morning quarterback here, but what I would have told myself was- “I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6″.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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To go one more step on DT comments, City Police forces in BC come under WCB guidelines which state: 7 out of 10 police vehicles on the road must be 2 man cars. The RCMP being a Federal Police Force does not have to meet these same requirements. This 61 year old was lucky he didn’t deal with a more experienced member;
“The officer, who has only been on the force for six months, had to have about 20 stitches to close a large gash on his arm. There were also two marks on the body armor he was wearing at the time”
This situation called for “use of deadly force”, and had this rookie had a partner with him, would have used more force rather than the Taser.
This is another reason why city police forces like to hire members; they are self-taught to think on their own in serious situations rather than having to rely on a partner all the time.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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It is very difficult to accurately comment on these type of encounters without knowing all the facts.
It appears that the member had the right to use deadly force. The use of deadly force could be used if the person with the knife had the ability, means, and intent, to cause grievous bodily harm or death to the police officer or others. All other means of stopping the threat would have had to be exhausted as well.
The above statement alone would take pages to investigate, explain, and dissect.
The taser may be used in some circumstances. If the person is charging at you with a knife there may not be time to deploy the taser. Accurately pointing the taser and stopping the threat under that circumstance would be a challenge to say the least.
Most police shootouts with the bad guy are at a distance of seven to ten feet and both usually miss. In life and death situations “Hormonal Induced Stress” kicks in. We lose our fine body Motor Skills. (E.G.: Finger Dexterity) We keep our gross body motor skills. (E.G.: Grabbing someone in a bear hug) Our mid-brain highjacks the fore-brain. The fore-brain allows us our thinking and reasoning skills. Animals do not have a fore-brain. We have both.
Animals are only concerned with the four “Fs)
Food
Fight
Flee
Procreate
In life and death situations we revert to the mid-brain process.
For example, if you were trapped behind a locked door in a room and there was a fire; you would beat on the door until it opened or until you passed out and died.
Training in life and death situations can help. This called “Stress Inoculation”. As in an inoculation, it must be very specific or it does not work. In police encounters the situations are very different.
If there were two members present, and the individual charged the members; deadly force would have been the only option, considering environment, ability of the individual, and all kinds of circumstances that cannot be listed here.
IF there was time, one member could have his firearm on the attacker while the other would deploy the taser. The taser may have stopped the person or not.
I am jumping around here because this is such a misunderstood and complex subject.
While well meaning, the danger is having someone like RMR trying to decide if the actions of an RCMP officer was appropriate. Hence, civilians review of police shootings.
I also point out that if this was a scenario that was presented at Depot and a knife was used (clear of any other circumstances); and the cadet used a taser rather than a firearm; it would be considered a failure.
We as Police Defensive Tactics Instructors (PDT) have had many discussions as to SOME members who responded to “use off force” options in the wrong way and were presented with RCMP awards. If they had used the same process in a PDT Scenario they would have failed.
I don’t know what happen in this situation. I do know the above should be added to the assessing process in determining if the member made the right decision.
Calvin Lawrence
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Calivin is right that this would be a failure in PDT and wouldn’t have washed in the FATS at firearms either.
My personal feeling here is that the more high tech something is the more that can go wrong with it. That’s why you gotta love gunpowder and lead!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The field training program for the RCMP is 6 months RMR. You could always do a little research before asking. http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/recruiting-recrutement/rm-mr/training-ecole-eng.htm
There is no department in Canada that employs every police vehicle with two officers. Some trouble areas in large metropolitan areas such as Toronto and Vancouver have agreements for two officer vehicles in their bargaining.
The taser is not a replacement for officer back up it is another form of intervention available for the officers. It does not take much training to use a taser. What takes the time is all the adjunct policy that come with it. Do you think that it really mattered how much service the officer had when the individual decided to attack with a knife? Perhaps the appearance of two officers would have made a difference in your opinion? Unpredictability is what officers face everyday.
Do you ever answer questions or engage in dialogue of others or just prattle on as the topics arise?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Why was this rookie working alone, lienced to use a tazer after being on the job for only six months?
Is the tazer replacing partners with experience now? Usually rookies do better working with experienced men, that to endanger their lives working alone.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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