Vancouver, B.C. (Canadian Press) – Robert Dziekanski would likely still be alive if he hadn’t been stunned multiple times with a Taser and restrained on the floor of Vancouver’s airport by four RCMP officers, says an expert pathologist.
Dr. John Butt, who has served as chief medical examiner in Alberta and Nova Scotia, told a public inquiry into Dziekanski’s death that the stress of the confrontation – including the use of the Taser – likely caused the Polish man’s heart to stop.
He said it was a death that could have been avoided.
“Is it fair to say that, in your opinion, had Mr. Dziekanski not been Tasered, not been restrained on the floor, that he would still be alive today?” asked Walter Kosteckyj, the lawyer for Dziekanski’s mother.
“I suspect that, yes,” Butt replied during his testimony Wednesday.
“Is that a strong opinion?” asked Kosteckyj.
“Yes,” replied Butt.
The inquiry has heard widely differing opinions on how much, if at all, the Taser is to blame for Dziekanski’s death.
Butt and the pathologist who conducted the autopsy on Dziekanski say the weapon may have contributed, while two experts paid by the company that makes Tasers insist it played no role at all.
Butt, who reviewed slides from Dziekanski’s autopsy, said the stress of his agitation, multiple Taser stuns and being restrained by police on the airport floor likely contributed to his heart stopping.
Still, he couldn’t say how significant a factor the Taser played.
Butt was called in to review several reports provided to the inquiry, and he agreed with the autopsy’s finding that Dziekanski’s cause of death could be described as “sudden death during restraint.”
It’s a little-understood term used for deaths in custody when there is no clear, anatomical cause of the death.
Butt disagreed with several findings in the autopsy report and in other reports provided to the commission.
For example, he said he could find no evidence that Dziekanski’s heart was damaged due to chronic alcoholism. That’s a contributing factor listed in the autopsy report.
Butt said Dziekanski’s liver and brain showed classic signs of alcoholism, but the man’s heart didn’t appear to be affected.
“I just don’t agree with that,” said Butt. “I don’t think there is alcoholic heart disease so I don’t think that it has any role (in Dziekanski’s death).”
He acknowledged that he didn’t have an opportunity to examine the heart himself, but he said it would be a finding that could only be confirmed through microscopic slides, which he had access to.
A lawyer for the federal government told the inquiry Dziekanski may have been on heart medication, however Butt said there was no indication of that in his medical records, including from a mandatory health exam required to immigrate to Canada.
Butt, who worked on a report about Tasers for the B.C. Police Complaints Commission four years ago, said he was also concerned the autopsy report barely mentions the fact that Dziekanski was stunned with a Taser.
Dr. Charles Lee, who conducted the autopsy, told the inquiry earlier in the week that the Taser may have contributed to Dziekanski’s death. But his report makes one mention of the weapon, only to explain marks on Dziekanski’s body.
“I don’t see how one could possibly not mention the Taser in the commentary in this case,” said Butt. “Whether or not that’s going to say that it’s hugely relevant to the cause of death, it’s enormously relevant to the events in this case.”
Lee has told the inquiry that while he knew Dziekanski had been shocked by a Taser, he was not aware he was shocked multiple times.
His autopsy report, along with two others provided to the commission, also mention excited delirium, a controversial term often used in in-custody deaths that has since been removed from RCMP training manuals.
Butt acknowledged the controversy surrounding the term, and also noted that in most cases where it is used, subjects are on drugs or suffering from mental illness such as paranoid schizophrenia.
Neither was the case with Dziekanski.
While he couldn’t say whether Dziekanski was suffering from any type of delirium, he said it’s not something that could be detected in an autopsy, and the video of the confrontation doesn’t provide enough information to make that determination.
Read the first page:
http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/police_services/publications/statistics/2007-crimestatistics.pdf
Then read page 10.
Might I suggest a course in internet searching procedures? You will be able to answer most of your own questions.
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Are not stats based on Convinctions rather than Arrest and Charges laid?
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Its called being a realist. Your example of the recent spate of arrests would be an example of a good news story for the average citizen, however, the inquiry will win hands down(one incident) in front and prominent page coverage.
There is however some new words in our lexicon that do cause concern despite the drop in overall crime. Dial a dope operation, drive by shooting, swarming, stomping, curbing etc. When you read the BC statistics, make sure you go to the back for the “disclaimers” which clarify the stats. Not very encouraging I would say.
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The news media is obsessed with the negative. Take crime as an issue. Granted, there is a very violent struggle amongst criminal gangs to control the lucrative drug trade here in B.C. in recent months but the actual crime rate in Canada is rather low and has been for years. For demographic reasons it began dropping across the board in North America in the mid-1990s. But the news media is saturated with stories about crime and in a very in-your-face manner. The more brutal and violent the crime, the more time they spend on it. You are more likely to have your house broken into while you are not home or your car stolen while you are in the mall than be the victim of a vicious assault but that fact doesn’t sell newspapers or get the viewers watching.
Lots of negative stories about crime and politics followed by some fluff about an old guy feeding ducks…Sounds like a typical Canwest/Global newscast (or CTV, CBC, etc…). There I go being cynical again.
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One of my points exactly. Thank you for a reasoned response. The news media tend to highlight the critical and ignore the banal or supportive information. It is very interesting that the reports cover the highly negative exclusively and tend to bend any revelation to that end.
My concern is reinforced when I discover things like Dr John Butt the pathologist who didn’t agree with all the findings of Dr. Lee was questioned why he changed his report several days after he sent in his final report to commission counsel. He changed it to read that the taser likely contributed to Mr. Dziekanski’s death yet the first version didn’t mention nor did his previous testimony in the first phase of the inquiry. It changed only after receiving the phone call from Commission counsel Art Vertlieb while Butt was on holidays in Hawaii allegedly suggesting he change it. Why was this not reported widely in the media?
Fortunately Braidwood hears all and will then render a finding. It may be that the coverage of this disaster will color general perceptions and interpretation of any future events, which is sadly probably true.
It is indeed unfortunate as well that all the officers, over 16,000, that any good performance accomplished every day is unreported and tainted by a few individuals who may, at the end of the day be charged, or fired or both, depending on the findings of the inquiry.
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I agree, there is a lot of rage and anger surrounding this issue on both sides. I myself have been swept up in all this anger at times, sometimes it seems like folks in Ottawa and Victoria are “asleep-at-the-switch” and quite willing to ignore problems until they “go away” or they have to call a commission of inquiry. We are all very cynical about our elected officials and public institutions, perhaps with good reason. But that is another topic for another debate.
The fact is that the Braidwood Inquiry is getting some answers to questions and has gone farther than I thought it would. It sounds lame, but we should let it play out before we start getting all worked up.
In the last couple of weeks I have been impressed by some pretty solid police work by the RCMP. The officer who risked his life to save that drowning woman and the RCMP negotiators who talked that nutcase in Princeton into giving himself up when he walked into the local detachment with the intent of shooting it up. Then another unpleasant admission from the Braidwood Inquiry comes out…
Deepthroat is correct in that we should not be angry about the unpleasant admissions coming out but should be pleased that they came out in a public inquiry. I gotta remind myself of that more often.
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Actually read and comprehend the post.
“shirking his responsibility in not pursuing…” references the LAWYER vis a vis questioning.
I am glad you can actually pick up on intentional hyperbole, its called in this instance “sarcasm” with respect to irrelevant questions posed only to increase legal suit returns, which for the most part does not benefit the client.
While you are at it look up the definition of “simile”.
“Perhaps an action will be brought in civil court against the YVR4 et al for wrongful death.”
Uhh, Its already been filed….
Your be-”fitting” observation is somewhat in error in that it will be the Department of Justice that will be supplying the legal assistance for the 4 police officers. They are neither high priced nor particularly high ranking in their abilities. Ditto with a criminal charge although the officers could retain outside counsel at their own expense, which could be doubtful.
I am sorry that you see rage in my posts, however, not surprising when you cannot even attribute my directed comments to the correct individual. I do not rage. Everyday spent in rage or hatred is a day wasted in life. Every day engaged in discourse to clarify issues and to prevent future disasters is well spent. It is a little disconcerting however, when citizens have absolutely no idea how the present system, good or bad, actually works. Do not misconstrue instruction for anything else.
One always reserves the right to use hyperbole and other mechanisms to point out the parallel and nonsensical items in other posts.
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Very Clearly Writen and a Bonus to this Issue.
Doesn’t it make you CONCERNED and MAD to see the extent they will go to secure their position and we are led to BELIVE some of them have the Common sence to work in Police Work, nope they don’t.
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Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!
If by “shirking his responsibility in not pursuing…” you are suggesting Dr. Butt left something out of his analysis best you re-read his testimony. Here is what he found:
“He could find no evidence that Dziekanski’s heart was damaged due to chronic alcoholism. That’s a contributing factor listed in the autopsy report.”
“I just don’t agree with that,” said Butt. “I don’t think there is alcoholic heart disease so I don’t think that it has any role (in Dziekanski’s death).”
He considered the findings and rejected them based on his decades of experience as a pathologist of eminent reputation. Just because you dislike his testimony doesn’t mean he gave an ill or hastily considered expert opinion.
As for “hyperbole” you are the master when it comes to obvious and intentional exaggeration.
Dziekanski arrived in Canada legally. Alive.
And seconds after being tasered one, two, three, four, and even five times by four cops who then kneed him to the floor where he lay inert, his heart stopped beating.
Argue black is white all you like but the fact is the man died and he died at the hands of 4 cops. Period.
It is not fair to say the blame rests with the airport authorities either. Because when the first responder firefighter crew arrived guess what? They couldn’t assist Mr. Dziekanski because the same cops who took Mr. Dziekanski’s life refused to take the hand cuffs off his inert body (by now turning blue) for fear he might attack.’ Good God! He had a stapler (held at his side no less)…who knows? He might be concealing other Office Depot weaponry like sticky notes or pencil erasers or a toner cartridge for the photocopier! So best the cuffs stay on.’
The first responders, noting the obvious, pointed out one cannot administer first aid to a body face down on the floor with his hands cuffed behind his back. And cops were the ones standing between the body and the first aid crew with the medical kit and the defibrillator.
And where do the authors of his death and their cruel apologists get off blaming the victim? He would be alive if he didn’t come to Canada? Tell us that is not really your secret to a long and healthy life: ‘don’t come to Canada and you may be OK…because if you do come you may be killed in the airport by the cops’. What nonsense.
At the end of the day…now pay attention, as you apparently have difficulty acknowledging the truth of the video the cops acted to suppress until legal intervention…
Mr. Dziekanski arrived alive. He arrived legally. Seconds after the cops tasered him five times (including 4 times after he collapsed withing in pain) and pinned him to the floor he was dead.
The cops did it.
The Canadian official who issued entry papers did not kill Robert. The flight attendant who served him a meal on the plane did not kill Robert. The Customs and Immigration officer who checked his entry papers at Vancouver did not kill Robert. The baggage handler who unloaded his bags did not kill Robert. The firefighters who could not get the cops to immediately release the cuffs from his inert body did not kill Robert. The Tooth Fairy, the Man in the Moon, and the Queen of Hearts did not Kill Robert.
The cops did it.
So you can rage as much as you like at others who reject your view. And by all means do, please do employ as many ad hominems as you like in place of the facts and logical argument which so effortlessly elude you.
But Robert Dziekanski is dead and the cops did it. It would be fitting to see the YVR4 stand trial. Perhaps it would be in a criminal court should charges be brought pending the outcome of Mr. Justice Braidwood’s report. Perhaps an action will be brought in civil court against the YVR4 et al for wrongful death.
It would be fitting to see the cops with the best criminal defense lawyers available and hand picked expert defense witnesses mount the best and most competent defense possible to answer criminal charges or a civil suit. It would be fitting to see the cops avail themselves of due process which they so thoroughly and with the finality of eternity denied Robert Dziekanski.
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Its also “fair to say” that if the airport authorities had assisted him, he would probably not have died. It is also fair to say that had he not traveled to Canada he would still be alive.
While the lawyers’ theatrics make points with the uniformed and easily excited with claptrap like that, he is shirking his responsibility in not pursuing cogent and important avenues of questioning about this disaster.
By all means lets fire the Solicitor General over this one, and maybe the Prime Minister eh Alcan? Your hyperbole is tiring.
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We need to look into why this organazation of police officers which are hired and paid by Canadians to uphold the truth in honesty have been allowed to get away with lies and with holding back information that would cause a decission or decissions to be taken, to favor the outcome of a case, their organazation or themselves while making others to be responsible…. pink slips, charges and heads should role at the highest level on this one.
This is at best crimminal in nature.
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