Megan Gillis (QMI Agency) – A prominent criminologist is calling for a coroner’s inquest into the “disturbing” facts surrounding the killing of Ottawa police Const. Eric Czapnik.
Irvin Waller, a former senior official with the office of Canada’s solicitor general – who is responsible for the RCMP – and now a professor of criminology at the University of Ottawa, argued Thursday that a trial can only find whether suspended RCMP officer Kevin Gregson is guilty or not.
An inquest, on the other hand, could examine whether he fell through the cracks between the mental health and criminal justice systems or if the people who have been concerned about his past behavior – including his RCMP bosses – could have stopped him.
“Clearly there are a lot of questions that need to be answered other than what will happen in a criminal trial,” said Waller, an expert on crime prevention.
“We have to ensure that something like this – however exceptional – can’t happen again.”
Gregson was stripped of his gun and badge in 2005 because supervisors in Regina said he was hostile and paranoid.
In 2006, he threatened a Mormon official with a knife and was handed a conditional discharge by a judge who cited past brain surgery in sparing him jail time.
Waller wonders if a mental-health court – like one in Ottawa that links offenders with treatment – could have helped Gregson.
Instead, he was ordered to resign from the RCMP in 2008 by an adjudication board that called him impulsive, irrational and excessive.
“I’m really raising questions from looking at the facts and saying these facts are pretty disturbing,” Waller said. “We have to make sure there’s action. Is there anything more effective in terms of prevention? Very clearly, people knew quite a lot about this guy before he (allegedly) did what he did.”
The province’s chief coroner can decide to hold an inquest if it’s in the public interest to have a public examination of the circumstances of a death, or a coroner’s jury could make recommendations that could prevent similar deaths in the future, Dr. Roger Skinner, the region’s supervising coroner, said.
But the chief coroner – whose motto is “we speak for the dead who protect the living” – doesn’t order an inquest until after the criminal process unfolds.
“It’s a possibility – certainly in this case it’s too early to say as yet,” Skinner said.
DT,
Apparently you do not understand my position or I am not presenting my position properly. Either way, I think that without further information I have kicked this particular headline to the curb.
I will end the way I started. We shall see.
(For me) Concluded Here:
Calvin Lawrence
CGL Consulting
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Apologies if this is repeated, but Calvin that “oath” is not now nor ever was a part of the RCMP oaths of office. A wishful thought on your part or perhaps belongs to some other department?
“My track record shows that I spoke “truth to power” and never traded “integrity for access”.”
Seems to be at odds with: ““I may be crazy but I am not stupid”.”, vis a vis bringing concerns forward to management.
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I am not sure what police force you obtained that from Calvin, however, it has never been nor is presently a part of the oaths of office for the RCMP. Perhaps its one you wish to be so?
I am sure that police officers try their best and at times fall short, after all they are only human like the rest of us.
“My track record shows that I spoke “truth to power” and never traded “integrity for access”.
Never said otherwise, but you and your colleagues did not bring forward your breath holding concerns to management did you? I belelieve you said in that regard:
“I will try to make my point again. There is a punch line to a joke.
“I may be crazy but I am not stupid”.”
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That was then and this is now. We have all eschewed the reality behind events as they have unfolded over the past number of years and now ponder what to do. I would suggest that a realization of the causes and not the rationalization of the results would go along way to addressing the issues. As Johnny pointed out the various ills we minutely dissect with the RCMP are not confined to that organization, but are rampant in society as a whole.
Various posts have related the underlying reasons for the present issues. They need not be repeated ad naseum here. You may bemoan the fact that various RCMP members do not receive what you consider appropriate treatment from the various levels of authority, but I am afraid that in todays society it will not be the case. With unrepentant, hardened, violent, career criminals, we tread softly. Why does it surprise you we do the same to police officers, lawyers, judges, doctors, ‘et al’?
I understand your point, you did not want to “rock the boat” in fear of reprisals. Like I said part of the problem or part of the solution.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“The number of horror stories that we are witnessing now are being committed by individual cadets who graduated from Depot as RCMP members.”
Witnessing now? You are old enough Calvin to remember “horror stories” during your RCMP tenure and prior to your tenure, even anecdotally. Recent exacting media scrutiny and hyperbole aside, the RCMP has always had its share of issues with its employees. Less than the general public I would say, but far from immune.
I do not contradict myself with respect to due process. My point to you was that rather than hold your collective breath and await the result, the course of action dictated would have been to identify deficiencies with your colleagues and present them to management in an ongoing best practices vein. Part of the problem or part of the solution. We have to choose.
“I am well aware of case law etc. You should be aware that police officers are held to a higher standard because they took an oath. If police officers are convicted of a crime then the penalties (especially in serious cases of violence) should be more severe.”
If you are conversant with case law then you know that other than a few ‘person in authority’ cases, the Charter applies equally to all. Phrases such as: modern management practices, reasonable assistance and guidance, out of character, medical issues, previously spotless record, “et al”, appear regularly in such cases with respect to sentencing. This should not surprise nor dismay you.
“Please tell me that your above comments are not the only answers that you have for what is happening regarding the increasingly serious acts of violence being committed by individual RCMP members. Would you sit across from the victims and/or their families and make the above statements? What do you think their reaction would be? Would you make the above statements if you were a manager in the RCMP at a board meeting? Would you make those statements in a court of law on the stand?”
Various level of jurisprudence recognize the confluence of events in their decision making process. They are actually quite succinct in their application. I appreciate your emotional redoubt in those last three questions, however, you should avail yourself of some of the decisions of which you rail against, and examine the reasons set forth. Also I am not convinced there is empirical data to support your negatively implied “increasingly serious acts of violence” assertion.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I see Calvin’s point.
How training works is, you can screw everything up (and I do mean EVERYTHING) the first time and get a second chance. The problem is on the street, if you blow your first chance they don’t give you remedial, they give you a coffin.
I have heard of stories of senior cadets who after 4- 5 months of training have pulled pepper spray out when knives and guns have been pulled on them in scenario’s. They get a remedial, a second chance then luck out and pass.
These are the types of clowns that make it through the system without one doubt raised about their suitability. However, someone who gets “dimed out” for questioning the hiring or training policies for retaining these types of useless people, can very quickly find themselves on the street with zero disclosure or due process.
Sad but true, politics does take priority over performance.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The number of horror stories that we are witnessing now are being committed by individual cadets who graduated from Depot as RCMP members.
I have no regrets because they graduated by passing all the critia required to do so. Objecting to there becoming RCMP members without anything but a gut feeling or intuition would be denying them “due process” as you mentioned.
You see DT, due process is not limited to the courts. Your contradicting your own argument.
I am well aware of case law etc. You should be aware that police officers are held to a higher standard because they took an oath. If police officers are convicted of a crime then the penalties (especially in serious cases of violence) should be more severe.
“Unfortunately life does not provide decision makers or anyone else with a crystal ball”
” Like psychologists will tell you, sometimes bad things happen”.
Deepthroat
Please tell me that your above comments are not the only answers that you have for what is happening regarding the increasingly serious acts of violence being committed by individual RCMP members.
Would you sit across from the victims and/or their families and make the above statements? What do you think their reaction would be?
Would you make the above statements if you were a manager in the RCMP at a board meeting?
Would you make those statements in a court of law on the stand?
Calvin Lawrence
CGL Consulting
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I think that Calvin is touching on a very valid point in his recruiting bit. For a few years now, I’ve heard various municipal forces as well as the RCMP talking about 1) recruiting difficulties in the face of 2) the anticipated retirement of an entire generation of police officers.
I’ve always suspected that this problem would be most seriously manifest in a lack of jack-boots on the street; rather, the most serious manifestation will be resultant of lowered recruiting standards and even more meatheads making it into the ranks.
I cringe to think about what is going to happen when this same glut of recruits that has a number of meatheads in its midst starts moving up the seniority list/chain of command.
For those of us who think that the recent spate of publicly aired issues facing the RCMP are serious, I’d suggest buckling in for an interesting ride over the next 20 years. To be fair, this particular problem isn’t strictly related to the RCMP.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“Reportedly a recent comment was made by an RCMP officer: “Now that we have reached the required hiring needs we can be more selective’. That statement says it all.”
Some context, perhaps even if someone actually said it to you would be nice.
“They passed all the required criteria, but as they went into the field we just held our collective breaths.”
Perhaps you and your colleagues should have done more then than hold your breath and look back now with regret.. You may or may not know that in the past number of years, a troop that graduated with all 32 in the compliment is cause for some form of celebration.
“I am also at a loss to understand why some judges are granting absolute discharges to severe crimes committed by serving RCMP members.”
Really Calvin? It is called the Charter with subsequent case law, and it also applies to police officers unless I have missed an addendum that states that we should be extra punitive on specific members of society. With very few “person in authority cases”, everybody is equal. I believe a relevant phrase is “due process” as we as society have helped evolve.
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Unfortunately life does not provide decision makers or anyone else with a crystal ball. Processes in place are as a result of issues that preceded and predicated their implementation. Because you deal with human beings you will never have a process or decision strategy that will satisfy everybody, or every possible permutation or combination of events. For example If you implement full body scans every 6 months for police officers in the RCMP you may have been able to see the brain issues the man had developing before his first incident. Knowing that some brain issues tend to make some people violent, you could summarily terminate him before anything untoward could possible happen, and force him into medical treatment/therapy. Is this the certainty level we desire?
The constant internal naval gazing at issues you have no control over seems to be gaining the status of a national sport. Like psychologists will tell you, sometimes bad things happen.
The fact that this individual was or still is, an RCMP officer, albeit being forced out, is totally irrelevant. It is merely convenient to use by some as a proverbial stick to poke the national sacred cow once again, in some pathetic attempt to discredit an organization or further an agenda or garner some personal headlines. God save us from the “talking heads” that the media so wholeheartedly looks to for anything that promotes their self aggrandizement.
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In these type of incidents; is past behaviour a prediction of future behaviour? (See below article.)
“Hour.ca – News – RCMP officer shooting-spree lawsuits” Deadly shooting spree by former RCMP officer prompts lawsuits by victims
As someone on this site said in another comment; we shall see!
Calvin Lawrence
CGL Consulting
Hot debate. What do you think?
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