Who is keeping them accountable?

26 Responses

1. Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

   The military trains its personnel competently (although not in the top 100) yet they still have instances such as assaults, torture, drug trafficking, rule violations etc. You will not get any argument from me on that point. What you will get is the devils advocate on the sky is falling rhetoric you visit unequally on the RCMP.

   People support the armed forces even though the latest tragedy of the heinous Williams serial killer, torturer etc. They still support them even though large numbers are charged with drug offenses. They still support them even though Roger Bazin, a retired chaplain-general of the armed forces, was arrested and charged with one count of buggery, one count of an act of gross indecency, and one count of indecent assault on a male. Brigadier-General Daniel Ménard was removed from command following allegations he had an intimate relationship with a member of his staff but we still support them.

   That list goes on and in my opinion pales in comparison to the RCMP problems. No serial killer torturers I have read about in the RCMP, nor disgraced chaplains or groups of drug traffickers. Any large organizations have issues with their personnel. Always have. Do you condemn the entire American military because of My Lai? You would not condone Canadian conduct in Leonforte in July 1943 would you? You still support the military as do I because they are made up of people and in that mix of people you get some problems. You have to look past the issues, do some research and be totally honest in coming to conclusions.

   The RCMP is a large organization made up of a mix of people and although they too have issues, unlike you I support them as a whole as we do the military. Your support however is apparently contingent upon some perceived slight you never even bothered to attempt to decipher, and sensational media reports based on incomplete facts, bias, and conjecture. You dismiss mitigating factors or even law in your zeal to condemn the organization.

   “Lets face facts, in the top 100 in training and continual problems, something is wrong here with only two possibilities, people or training, you pick.”

   I pick people. It certainly was not training that failed the people of Canada with Williamson, or anyone in the RCMP.

   I have slowly drawn for you a more complete picture (sometimes in comparison to the military), with the law, factors you had no idea about, links to readily available information, and your own prejudices. And as is your right in any forum of debate you can and do ignore them.

   I have also tried my best to fully answer your questions, a courtesy you do not return, as I suspect you do not like to be shown to or admit to be wrong. You are quite correct, this is not a test, it is a forum for open and far reaching debate on issues in or surrounding the RCMP. Whether or not you learn anything is totally up to you. I would not presume to mark you in any way. It seems the forum does that on its own.

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   Deepthroat — 2010.12.18 @ 16:40 —

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   Your question on 2010-12-15:
   “Would you please refer me to the book members study to know what rules they have to abide by?”

   Today: “So there IS a book on what orders to ignore when policing?”

   Was the one today really the question you were asking on the 15th, because I answered your question as posed then. Or did you really mean to phrase it like the one today?

   “Explain to me how the person is so dangersous (SIC) that they need to be hog-tied.”

   Well, that question I understand. Best directed at the officer (s) involved or perhaps the review panel who examined the incident. I was not there, nor have I read the details, so I cannot tell you. However, I could surmise that if one was in such restraint, they could not kick out the windows of the police car, nor bash themselves into oblivion on the prisoner shield etc. But again I cannot speak for the incidents noted. Perhaps you could do a FOI if you are really concerned.

   “Your reassurance that it takes a court ruling confirms that the RCMP believes it is above the law, something countless people have said for many years.”

   I’m sorry I do not understand your comment. I am flattered however, that you put such weight on my observations. If it takes a court decision for them to comply, then does it not follow that they follow the courts direction?

   “It would be intersting (SIC) if you visited a forum I did that yesterday posted the video of the member that beat the crap out of a perp in Lac La Biche AB while another member stood there and watched.”

   Sorry must have missed your listing the link. Perhaps you could share this link.

   “Correct me if I am wrong but I think many weeks ago you said the RCMP was a para-military orgnization (SIC). Interesting as the word paramilitary is generally associated with some sleezy (SIC) organizations in South America. Personally I would be embarassed (SIC) to be compared to them.”

   Such vitriol. The RCMP has, including in the sixties, called itself a paramilitary organization. To this day, the government and many institutions use the same reference. I have commented before on the dual identity of paramilitary and corporate philosophies struggling within the organization. I do not recall any comparisons to South American organizations, perhaps you could furnish a few?

   “Our Canadian Forces are far from perfect but the RCMP pales in comparison in EVERY aspect.”

   Unsupported by the various polls over the years. I guess that you would be pained to learn that the RCMP was named in the top 100 training organizations in North America? Your thoughts on the two officers killed in Haiti?

   Still waiting for your answers on several questions.

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   Deepthroat — 2010.12.17 @ 16:40 —

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     Interesting that the the RCMP is in the top 100 in” training”, unfortunately it has little bearing on the quality of the officers in the field. This is proven in the stories that constantly appear in this forum.

     Do you think the people that rate the training only visited Depot in Regina and never actually did any follow-up to the effectiveness of the training in the field.

     Good training often does not equate to good employees in the end result. This is shown in every occupation you can think of. Of course this is not true for the RCMP..LOL.

     Probably trained to not beat the crap out of prisoners …. like in Lac La Hache…maybe that member was sick and missed that day.

     In training instructed to not “stand by” and allow someone to be assaulted? Lac La Biche.

     In training told that drinking and driving is a no no but how many were sick and missed that day. Possibly believe that only applies to “civilians”??

     In training told to tell the truth otherwise the case can go out the door quicklly. Brings back memories of the “warrant” in the drug case that was dismissed in court summer of 2010, Vancouver.

     Are they taught in training that having many empty cups and wrappers in the vehicle from drive-thru restaurants is not grounds for a legal search..Grand Forks BC? I guess someone forgot that session in Depot. If not that should be added to the curriculum.

     Obviously must be told something about the odor of fabric softener, but again must have missed the words “odor was not grounds for a legal search”. Saskatchewan??

     Possibly the training is adequate (doubtful) but then the possibiliy exists that the wrong candidates have been hired (probable). Or a combination of both?

     It must be the members that are being trained too often ignoring the training or are incapable of digesting what is taught.Something must be wrong considering all the problems the force is experiencing. Oh and PLEASE don’t spout “they are only human”.

     Lets face facts, in the top 100 in training and continual problems, something is wrong here with only two possibilities, people or training, you pick.

     About the two officers that died in Haiti. Very sad and it was great the volunteered for the mission. I have no idea why you mentioned them without mentioning the 153 Canadian Soldiers that lost their lives in Afghanistan. Or why not mention the members who went overseas in WWI or WWII as I am sure some of them gave their lives for our freedom. It is sad when anyone looses their life while doing there job, no matter what that job is.

     I have no problem with you waiting for answers on your questions. This to me is not a test, you are not a teacher and do not get to give out marks.

     I wish you and everyone on this forum a Merry Christmas and the Best in 2011.

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     D — 2010.12.18 @ 13:26 —

3. Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

   “The complaints commission generally found that relevant Taser policy was followed. But it noted the hog-tie was “still being readily used” to restrain people after stun gun firings despite being prohibited by the RCMP in 2002 with only specific exceptions.”

   Your question should be what were the consequences to the officers involved. Did they fall into the “specific exceptions” area? Were they disciplined? Valid questions before you draw your conclusions.

   “What a bunch of cowboys you are defending.” By challenging your unsupported hypothesis and hyperbole I am not defending anyone. You fail to take into account numerous critical and sometimes obvious areas such as the sentencing provisions of the CCC for Mr. Wilson. I merely point out the shortcomings in your flawed analysis on issues, or provide you with reference points that bear on the issues you find so outrageous.

   “Obviously even a direct rule about using the hog-tie from the commish. can and will be ignored if the court has not ruled on its usage.”

   See above quote, there are exceptions in the “policy”. The latter part of your sentence is not true. “Can and will if ……” The Criminal Code of Canada governs the use of force under section 25:
   25. (1) Every one who is required or authorized by law to do anything in the administration or enforcement of the law
   (a) as a private person,
   (b) as a peace officer or public officer,
   (c) in aid of a peace officer or public officer, or
   (d) by virtue of his office,
   is, if he acts on reasonable grounds, justified in doing what he is required or authorized to do and in using as much force as is necessary for that purpose.

   In the final analysis, the court will decide if the force used was justified, not the Commissioner.

   You ask for “the book” members study to know what rules they have to abide by. If you have not gleaned or remembered the references made in this forum that relate to that topic, I am not going to recite them for you. Do some research.

   Did you find any “Queens Cowboys” (ask your cousins if they recall the adjective as it was commonly used in reference to the RCMP in the past) that you would respect in the link that I gave you?
   http://bc.rcmp.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=404&languageId=1&contentId=8875
   Or perhaps in some of the past articles in this forum vis a vis bravery awards?

   Decipher the reasoning the case study was hinged upon?

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   Deepthroat — 2010.12.16 @ 19:52 —

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     So there IS a book on what orders to ignore when policing?

     Lets face facts, members against the orders from the powers that govern routinely hog-tie perps when they have been order not to do it. Exceptions my arse, it is done with no reagard for the word. When a person is lying on their stomach handcuffed hand and foot they are no danger unless you are a wimp and afraid you migh break a finger nail.
     Explain to me how the person is so dangersous that they need to be hog-tied.

     I guess it is the reason we see so many court actions against the RCMP, they ae doing whatever they want waiting for the courts to rule whether or not it was legal.

     Your reassurance that it takes a court ruling confirms that the RCMP believes it is above the law, something countless people have said for many years.

     It would be intersting if you visited a forum I did that yesterday posted the video of the member that beat the crap out of a perp in Lac La Biche AB while another member stood there and watched.

     Most on the forum had not seen that video and I advised all to visit this site to see ALL the stories that are showing how the RCMP is failing in its mandate.If you believe I am critical their postings on what they viewed would make the Pope shake his head. One question that came up was why nothing has been done to the officer that did nothing while his partner assaulted the perp..

     The quote of months ago by a retired LEO that the RCMP is the “Wal-Mart” of policing seems more fitting everyday.

     Personally I am tred of “Cheap” and “Not Very Good” policing.

     The use of the word “cowboys” was not in reference to the Queens Cowboys back when the RCMP had the respect they earned with the public.

     Correct me if I am wrong but I think many weeks ago you said the RCMP was a para-military orgnization. Interesting as the word paramilitary is generally associated with some sleezy organizations in South America. Personally I would be embarassed to be compared to them.

     Lastly for this post, I am a CITIZEN not a CIVILIAN to the RCMP. Just another example of how they consider themselves to be a military force but not subject to the rules that our distinguished Canadian Forces are. Our Canadian Forces are far from perfect but the RCMP pales in comparison in EVERY aspect.

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     D — 2010.12.17 @ 11:54 —

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   “One thing is for sure the dedication in the 60’s surpasses anything I have seen in the last 10 years.”

   No dedication in BC?
   http://bc.rcmp.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=404&languageId=1&contentId=8875

   “Seriously doubt it however, but seeing as communicaton (SIC) was still done on stone tablets possibly the nasty press though it wasn’t worth the chiseling.

   LOL Good one. Quite humorous the chiseling item. Seriously doubt but DON’T KNOW do you? I gave you a couple.

   “Ratio of cases solved in the 60’s compared to now would be a intersting (SIC) topic. ”

   Yes it would. In your research you can visit the following site to get a start:
   http://www.primetimecrime.com/contributing/2005/20050801ICURS.htm

   It will give you some perspective when your research comes to some conclusions. All you have to do is research some empirical data from your golden era for comparison, to support your hypothesis.

   If you actually read the case study from the Federal Court, can you know recite the reason that ultimately caused the demise of the action by the RCMP? I answered yours, now you answer that.

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   Deepthroat — 2010.12.14 @ 21:59 —

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   “Unfortunate that two of your posts on the 60’s happened in the 70’s.”

   By officers hired, trained and operating since the sixties, or did you comprehend my note on that?

   “Of course the RCMP haven’t spied on anyone since the 60’s. It you believe that then I have a tall building in Paris that I would like to sell you. Bring Cash.”

   Never said that. Only pointed out it was happening in your golden era. Just because it was not in the news does not mean issues were not happening.

   “17 members charged from activities in the late 60’s and early 70’s. Pretty scary, but how many have been charged in Canada in the last 8 years. Bet the number 17 pales in comparison. Want to take the bet?”

   Per capita, maybe, but also in the sixties as I pointed out, the media did not report on the government institutions as they do now. The RCMP certainly never aired its diry laundry did it? How many runaways returned to Mount Cashel, and residential schools with no investigation of accusations?

   Your assertions aside the RCMP does not make laws in this country. How laws are made was provided in a link to you. Show me a law that the RCMP MADE.

   “Afraid of contact with the RCMP? With the type of person that has been hired in the last few years everyone should be concerned that their safety is in jeopardy.”

   Paranoia will destroy you.

   “Seeing as you disagree totally with my idea of what policing was like in the 60’s why did you fail to post on the death of Robert Dziekanski?”

   Epic fail, do some research. Lots of discussion on this forum including me. Where do you conclude that I disagree with your golden era? I only point out to you that the era was not all that golden, that the RCMP has had personnel issues its entire existence, including your golden era. It is a moot point as to whether or not its better or worse as there are factors prohibiting minute examination such as a dearth of public accounts. You however deny the basic facts, and continue to decry one “era”.

   “Give the the “spin” on it taking YEARS to have a internal investigation completed. ”

   You will get no argument from me or even the new Commissioner that the process is too long. I have never supported the process as being wonderful, so where do you intimate I should give it spin? Its because you refuse to accept that there are factors that I point out that cause some of the problems. Your rhetoric is not based in reality or facts, but a rose tinted vision of what and how things should be based on an ideologue of a time that never was.

   “Why no spin on the report on the death of 10 people while in Custody of the RCMP? The report by the commission is quite specific on what happened in these cases. ”

   An independent inquiry like Mr Braidwood’s has examined facts as they were given, and came to some conclusions. You feel it necessary to assign a role to me that is of your choosing. You seem to think I am some kind of apologist when the interjection of actual facts to your hyperbole such as the sentencing of Mr. Wilson only serves to educate you on various aspects of issues. Nice of you to acknowledge their role as you seem to previously deem them irrelevant. I do not see anything there that I would take issue with. Seems like they did a good job. The shortcomings of the officers involved appear to be prima facie.

   “Do you think it is acceptable that officers who used the taser were not certified in their use.” Yes, its not rocket science to use one.

   “Do you think it is acceptable that in 40% of the deaths in custody the person was hog-tied after being tasered?”

   “Do you think it is acceptable that members are still using the “hog-tie” after it was outlawed by the force in 2002?” In some circumstances yes. I am not going to second guess an officer in a violent situation unless I was there. Its only policy. The courts have not said it cannot be done.

   “Do you think it is acceptable that the RCMP have had this report for approximately 5 months and have not commented on its contents?” It is a large government bureaucracy inextricably linked to the machinations of that government and it does not surprise me. You SHOULD be asking WHO has kept the report, WHY and on whose authority for what purpose before you begin the bleating. Try and go a bit below the surface for a change.

   “Why do you assume I or anyone will not be detained under the War Measures Act? One never knows what the future holds. ”

   In case you did not hear, the War Measures Act was modified years ago. The Act’s 1970 regulations were replaced by the Public Order (Temporary Measures) Act of November 1970, which expired on 30 April 1971. In 1988, the Progressive Conservative government of Prime Minister Brian Mulroney introduced Bill C-76, the Emergency Preparedness Act. At the same time the Emergencies Act was introduced, and passed, as a replacement for the War Measures Act, which was repealed under Bill C-77 And the golden era Mounties of the sixties are not around anymore do perform such illegalities. Of the 465 people detained and held without charges by them, how many do you think complained, and how far did they get? Some research may be in order there eh?

   “Oh in closing, knowing how you believe the force hired the right people, do you think it was acceptable that in NL a perp that they had surrounded for 8 days escaped unnoticed? Just thought I would add this so we could start a new thread.”

   Well you got me there all right. That certainly never happened in the sixties to the RCMP or to any other law enforcement body since. I guess it hasn’t happened since the mad trapper of rat river slipped away! Does Wilfred Robinson in Saskatchewan count? Hunted and lost by 60’s Mounties? Probably not eh, it was in 1971 after all. Must of been those 70/71 rookies. And how about the Alberta manhunt of the late 60’s where the accused was found hiding in a barn near Calgary, already check by a 60’s Mountie?

   You did not answer my question if you like the idea of the Mounties giving a little street justice on their own accord.

   The RCMP has survived through many issues and crises throughout its history, and remains one of the worlds best police forces, much to your dismay I am sure. It will continue to survive due to the dedication of the membership despite the government meddling and the paranoia of a few, and the loss of some good men in the sixties (and other times).

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   Deepthroat — 2010.12.14 @ 16:31 —

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     Gee of course I saw your post that they were hired in the 60’s.

     Have no idea if anyone escaped after being surrounded by the RCMP in the 60’s. Seriously doubt it however, but seeing as communicaton was still done on stone tablets possibly the nasty press though it wasn’t worth the chiseling.

     Ratio of cases solved in the 60’s compared to now would be a intersting topic. One thing is for sure the dedication in the 60’s surpasses anything I have seen in the last 10 years. But of course some of that can be attributed to the fact that the “bar” to join was actually “off the ground” compared to today.

     The last time I saw a credible poll on the RCMP they were considered to by anything butl one of the world best police forces. I know they “preach” that in training and I guess some in the force actually believe it, not so many in the general public.

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     D — 2010.12.14 @ 19:57 —

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     Would you please refer me to the book members study to know what rules they have to abide by?

     Obviously even a direct rule about using the hog-tie from the commish. can and will be ignored if the court has not ruled on its usage.

     What a bunch of cowboys you are defending. Out of control, court never said anything so it must be OK to do! Obviously willfully ignoring a direct order is OK in the RCMP.

     Makes me think even more that the organization is TOTALLY Out of Control.

     To any cowboy reading this I apologize for using your name in vain, they wouldn’t allow this to be posted if I really used what I wanted to. I respect most cowboys.

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     D — 2010.12.15 @ 22:42 —

6. D says: “The CFC run by the RCMP have made new laws in regard to firearms countless times in the past. Owners of what the CFC have classified as legal firearms have sometimes years later had the RCMP declare the gun to be prohibited.”

   Rubbish. The CFC is governed by The Firearms Act and Regulations, and the Criminal Code of Canada. Any amendment to the act or regulations is at the discretion of parliament, NOT the RCMP:

   http://www2.parl.gc.ca/sites/lop/aboutparliament/guidehousecommons/making_laws-e.asp

   If the regulations change then they are APPLIED by the CFC and the various law enforcement bodies. The RCMP does not MAKE laws. Simple. If weapon ‘A’ is declared to be prohibited in 2 years and it is not now, its not the RCMP who decide that issue. In a democracy it is not the police who make laws, it is the elected representatives that do that. Weapons are examined in a lab setting by civilian experts to determine whether or not they meet the criteria to be prohibited, according to the regulations, not the RCMP.

   The RCMP handle the fingerprint system in Canada. Does that mean they can change the regulations or laws in regard to fingerprinting people? Uhh no. Its governed by the Identification of Criminal Act. Look it up.

   “On labor relations, if the RCMP allow the tail to wag the dog then I have no sympathy for them. Make changes to get control of your employees, most other successful businesses have done this, or maybe that is why the RCMP are so unsuccessful with internal discipline.”

   I guess you have not read the case I mentioned, nor the CLC, nor any labor law. If you call the labor laws the tail wagging the RCMP then I guess you would be right. However, remember, the laws are what govern everybody including the RCMP. Contrary to your assertion that the RCMP makes laws, it just has to abide by what has been put in place since your glorious sixties in the labor field. Especially within the Federal service sphere. You reference corporations. Well, the RCMP is not a corporation. It is part of the Federal Government and has to abide by its wishes. Why do you think I and many others advocate for an independent RCMP from the government? Simply put, the rules of engagement change dramatically. No federal hiring practices, no federal interference in budgeting, training hiring and the lot.

   Perhaps you read the post by RMR quoting some retired officer. If true, are you in support of your son being manhandled in an alley? No accountability or discipline for roughing him up? I don’t think so. Its called assault, and is not tolerated by the public these days. Yes Mrs. Public, here is your son, I caught him doing ‘A’ in the park and he got a couple of slaps upside the head for doing it. Have a nice day. Sure, that would really fly today.

   Ah yes the sixties:

   - ‘They smell bad, have diseases, and are lazy’: RCMP Officers Reporting on Hippies in the Late Sixties
   The Canadian Historical Review – Volume 90, Number 2, June 2009, pp. 215-245 No bias there.
   -Spying on Tommy Douglas and the NDP.
   -Operation Checkmate
   -The rooting out of homosexuals in the civil service: The Canadian War on Queers: National Security as Sexual Regulation is co-written by Gary Kinsman and Patrizia Gentile. It was published in Vancouver by UBC Press (2010)
   -Spying on the Parti Quebecois
   -Killings of sled dogs during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s
   -17 members of the RCMP being charged with 44 offenses stemming from activities in late 60’s early 70’s.
   -Corporal Robert Samson was arrested trying to plant explosives at the house of Sam Steinberg. Oops that was 1974, but he joined in the 60’s.
   -Sgt. Kinloch convicted of trafficking and ppt of several hundred pounds of hash in Vancouver in the early 70’s. Hired and trained in the 60’s.

   As far as the membership, the officers were subject to multiple transfers at will, “hockey transfers” no house relocation packages, poor pay, limited holidays, couldn’t marry for 5 then 2 years, spouses worked as radio operators and clerks for free, 3rd class radio systems, hidden assessments, and those items can go on as well. Blind obedience.

   The list goes on but I hope you can grasp the picture. Your idyllic sixties were not that idyllic. Reporting against public institutions was not as it is today, you learn more faster and more depth. People will always be people and reflective of society as a whole. You are not alone in yearning for a simpler time, however, simpler sometimes means ignorance is bliss.

   As far as your hyperbole accusation, its not limited to the police spokespersons.

   “I have read many articles where the RCMP are having problems attracting recruits, ever sat down and REALLY tried to figure out why? Odd seeing as the Canadian Forces are turning people away as they are currently getting too many applicants. ”

   Not so, the waiting list is 2 to 3 years today. The earlier drive was fashioned because of the poor planning in relation to restricted budgets, cost cutting by the Government, unforeseen retirements and especially in BC, failure to fill vacant positions until it became a scourge (including mandatory vacancies for municipalities as a cost cutter). The ’shortage’ stories can be also be partially attributed to Federal Govt hiring guidelines. Now all of a sudden you need 900+ in the Province of BC. Alberta, Sask, and Manitoba insist they do not want homegrown recruits ( a 180 from 10 years ago) and thus you have factors causing a “shortage”. It is artificial. Those on the ongoing waiting list went elsewhere.

   “And you wonder why I wish we had Mounites (sic) like we had in the 60’s, well let me tell you in the 60’s people really didn’t feel that their life was in jeopardy when they were stopped/confronted/questioned/arrested by a member. ”

   You do not speak for everyone. If you are afraid to have contact with an RCMP member then you will not be part of the 3 million contacts with the pubic every year. I am sure they will survive. At least you will not be detained under the War Measures Act as some BC residents were, unlawfully, by members hired and trained in the 60’s.

   Hot debate. What do you think? 26  32

   Deepthroat — 2010.12.13 @ 22:20 —

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     Your comparisons on the corrupt members in the 60’s pales in comparison to the problems that have occured after 2000. I personally would trust any member from the 60’s over many in the force today.

     Unfortunate that two of your posts on the 60’s happened in the 70’s.

     Of course the RCMP haven’t spied on anyone since the 60’s. It you believe that then I have a tall building in Paris that I would like to sell you. Bring Cash.

     Hate to tell you that I have seen some “hippies” in the 21st Century and some did have a peculiar odor, am not sure if it is a carryover from the 60’s however. Your comment on hippies is pretty lame! I am sure the officers that said that have had many sleepless nights.

     17 members charged from activities in the late 60’s and early 70’s. Pretty scary, but how many have been charged in Canada in the last 8 years. Bet the number 17 pales in comparison. Want to take the bet?

     Afraid of conact with the RCMP? With the type of person that has been hired in the last few years everyone should be concerned that their safety is in jeopardy.

     Rubbish on your Rubbish to changes in gun laws. Show me where the last two declarations for changes that occured in June? of this year were passed by Parliament…who are you trying to kid? You actually think the Conservatives would have introduced the changes the RCMP made? The party that has the intention to give the long gun registry the boot?

     Labor laws are changed all the time, again there is NO WILL internally to have changes made or it would be done.

     Give the the “spin” on it taking YEARS to have a internal investigation completed.

     Seeing as you disagree totally with my idea of what policing was like in the 60’s why did you fail to post on the death of Robert Dziekanski?

     Why no spin on the report on the death of 10 people while in Custody of the RCMP? The report by the commission is quite specific on what happened in these cases.

     Do you think it is acceptable that officers who used the taser were not certified in their use.

     Do you think is is acceptable that in 8 of the 10 deaths the “In Custody Death” form was not completed?

     Do you think it is acceptable that in 40% of the deaths in custody the person was hog-tied after being tasered?

     Do you think it is acceptable that members are still using the “hog-tie” after it was outlawed by the force in 2002?

     Do you think it is acceptable that the RCMP have had this report for approximately 5 months and have not commented on its contents?

     Of course I don’t speak for everyone, but I do speak for many more than you are willing to admit. I am reassured by your comment that the 3 million citizens that will have contact with the RCMP over the next year will survive. I bet some won’t.

     Why do you assume I or anyone will not be detained under the War Measures Act? One never knows what the future holds.

     Oh in closing, knowing how you believe the force hired the right people, do you think it was acceptable that in NL a perp that they had surrounded for 8 days escaped unnoticed? Just thought I would add this so we could start a new thread.

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     D — 2010.12.14 @ 00:59 —

     • Wow! D; when you get going you get going…. yeah!

       Wasn’t that a funny one hosing the house and he’s gone already… I wonder who’s going to pay for that damage now? They got the press okay but it kind of back fire on them. I think I heard that some citizen had to call the police for the man to be apprehended.

       Land in Paris so does this mean you are French?

       I love how you posted your comment; a reporter couldn’t have done a better job

       Hot debate. What do you think? 26  21

       RMR — 2010.12.14 @ 23:12 —

7. RMR, If I may add to your comment:

   WHEN A POLICE OFFICER RETIRES:

   When a good police officers leaves the job and retires to a better life;
   many are jealous, some are pleased, and yet others, who have already retired wonder.
   We wonder if he or she knows what they are leaving behind because we already know.

   We know for example, that after a life time of camaraderie that few experience, it will remain as longing for those past times.

   We know in the law enforcement life there is a fellowship that lasts long after the uniforms are hung up in the back of the closet.

   We know even if the uniform is thrown away, that uniform will be worn with every step and breath that remains in that police officer’s life.

   We also know that the very being of the police officer speaks out of what he or she was and in their heart still is.

   These are the burdens of the job. You will look at people suspiciously, still see what others do not see, or choose to ignore and always will look at the rest of the law enforcement world with respect for what they do, only in a lifetime of knowing. Never think for one moment that you are escaping from that life. You are only escaping the job and merely being allowed to leave active duty.

   So, what I wish for you is that whenever you ease into retirement; in your heart you never forget for one moment that “Blessed are the Peace Makers for they shall be called The Children of God” and you are still the greatest fraternity the world has ever known.

   There are those that think that they understand and then there are police officers.

   Calvin Lawrence

   Hot debate. What do you think? 18  15

   Calvin Lawrence — 2010.12.13 @ 19:27 —

8. To those not retired, you will get there someday. To the others, I just had to pass this on.

   I think we can all relate in one way or another to this … Especially in the last paragraph!

   Thoughts from a cop who retired in ‘99. Just before retiring, some young puppy was busting my chops about how law enforcement has changed, and the system is improving for the best. I just smiled and gave him a little laugh.

   He asked what was so funny. I told him that I felt sorry for him. When asked why, I told him, “Because in about 15 years, THIS is going to be your good old days.”

   We all saw the change in our jobs. I came on in 1970. I used to tell the rookies that our academy lasted 3 months. They gave us a stick, a gun, a dime, and kicked us out into the street. They told us: If you need help, use the dime. If you can’t get to a phone, use the stick. If using the stick pisses him off use the gun.

   And the first order we received when we were assigned was from our field sergeant. His order was “Don’t you EVER bother me, kid.”

   Law enforcement then, was much different than the current mission. We delivered babies, got rough in the alley when we needed to, made “Solomon-like” decisions at least once a tour, and often wound up being big brother to the kid we roughed up in that alley a year or so ago. And, for some reason, none of that managed to get on a report. And the department didn’t really want to know. All they wanted was numbers, and no ripples in the pond.

   Because of the changing times, and the evolution of law enforcement, the modern young officers will never see that form of policing, and of course this is best. The current way is the right way… Now. But it was different then (ergo, the Dinosaur Syndrome).

   When it’s time to go, we wonder if we’re going to miss the job. After all, other than our own kids and a few marriages, it was the most important thing in our lives. Actually, it was the other way around. The job was first, but only another cop could understand how I mean that.

   But have faith, brother! After a short time of feeling completely impotent (after all, you’re just John Q. Now), reality hits like a lead weight hopefully you will adjust.

   It’s not the job we miss after all. It’s what we, as individuals, had accomplished while in this profession that we miss. The challenge of life and death, good and bad, right and wrong, or even simply easing the pain of some poor misguided indididual for a while and someone we will probably never see again.

   We know the reality of what’s happening out there. We are the ones who have spent our entire adult life picking up the pieces of people’s broken lives. And the troubling revelation of it all is that no one, except us really knows what we did out there.

   I was once told that being a good cop is like coming to work in a wet suit and peeing in your pants. It’s a nice warm feeling, but you’re the only one who knows anything has happened sometimes.

   What I missed mostly, though, were the people I worked with. Most of us came on the job together at the age of 21 or 22. We grew up together. We were family. We went to each others weddings, shared the joy of our children’s births, and we mourned the deaths of family members and marriages. We celebrated the good times, and huddled close in the bad.

   We went from rookies who couldn’t take our eyes off of the tin number of the old timer we worked with, to dinosaurs.

   After all, what they gave us was just a job. What we made of it was a profession. We fulfilled our mission, and did the impossible each and every day, despite the department and its regulations.

   I think the thing that nags you the most when you first retire is: After you leave the job and remove your armor, the part of you that you tucked away on that shelf for all those years, comes out. It looks at all the things you’ve done and hidden away. All the terrible and all the wonderful things that happened out there. And it asks you the questions that no one will ever be able to answer.

   “Do you think I did OK? Did I make a difference? Was I a good cop?”

   You know what? Yeah, you were a good cop! And you know it because of…!

   In closing: the best advice I got, by far, was from an old friend who left the job a few years before me. He told me to stay healthy, work out and watch my diet. He said “Cause that way, the first day of every month you can look in the mirror, smile and say. I screwed them out of another month’s pension!!”

   Be well, take care and make good decissions!!

   Well-liked comment. Do you Like or Dislike: 21  9

   RMR — 2010.12.13 @ 13:19 —

9. Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

   “It would do the RCMP good PR to stop making outlandish statements that its member face dismissal ever.”

   You would like the truth? The truth is that dismissal is at one end of the range of sentencing in their kangaroo court. for some offenses. You will note that the media continuously refers to the range of penalties in their articles including maximum sentences for any offenses for anybody. Hardly ever given, but it is the truth, there is an upper and lower limit to authorities. Its one of the first questions always asked of the offenses. Your vitriol should be directed at the range of the penalties not the maximums or perhaps that they (the maximums) are never given. If you read the case I referenced and the CLC I mentioned previously, you would have answered your own question.

   “Another thing is possibly the RCMP should uphold the law and refrain from trying to make new laws.”

   And just how is the RCMP trying to “make” new laws? An example would be instructive if you actually have one. The organization is regularly canvassed for its opinion on various legal strategies that the government and other groups advocate. It is part of their operations as dictated by the government. They are one of many touchstones (stakeholders) the various entities utilize in formulating plans, laws, programs, etc.

   No comments on the information I referred you to vis a vis labor relations?

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   Deepthroat — 2010.12.12 @ 19:27 —

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     The CFC run by the RCMP have made new laws in regard to firearms countless times in the past. Owners of what the CFC have classified as legal firearms have sometimes years later had the RCMP declare the gun to be prohibited.

     Parliament made the laws under the Firearms Act, the RCMP are to enforce the laws and keep their nose out of writing new laws. If there is a need to update laws then it is the job of Parliament.

     Another good point would be to have members of the RCMP stop spinning stories when they seize weapons from any person. The other day a story in the news where a spokesperson said they seized some firearms from someone and possibly saved the life of THOUSANDS. Or the member in Lumby that was on TV when talking about a 1928 Thompson turned in by the relatives of a man who died and stated that the Thompson was used for “taking out” tanks. Holy crap educate members to tell the truth and stop looking like idiots.
     Sensationalism should not be used anytime. It is something like always crying “wolf” eventually people don’t believe anything you say.

     On labor relations, if the RCMP allow the tail to wag the dog then I have no sympathy for them. Make changes to get control of your employees, most other successful businesses have done this, or maybe that is why the RCMP are so unsuccessful with internal discipline.

     With the problems the RCMP are having in regard to internal discipline one would think someone would be attempting to make changes.

     I have read many articles where the RCMP are having problems attracting recruits, ever sat down and REALLY tried to figure out why? Odd seeing as the Canadian Forces are turning people away as they are currently getting too many applicants.

     I just read a article from Canadian Press on the investigation of RCMP in Custody Deaths between 2003 and 2008, 6 out of 10 of those deaths were in BC, any idea why? This article said the RCMP is continuing to hog-tie people AFTER the force OUTLAWED that type of restraint in 2002.

     The RCMP watchdog also stated that in 8 out of 10 cases the RCMP In-Custody Death” form was not filled out. That negligence to duty in unacceptable but guess what ,no one will be brought to task. Now lets “spin” that one into members doing their job.

     The article also realates to members who were not qualified using the taser, how is this possible or allowed. Oh yes and in seven cases the taser use form was filled out “a significant time after the incident”. REMEMBER in all these cases the person in custody DIED.

     Of course the RCMP is not commenting, can’t blame them as it is obviously going to take some time to figure out how to spin this report. The report was given to the RCMP in July of this year, strange it took a Access to information Act inquiry to get a copy.

     The comission reviewd 50,000 pages of material before making their interm report.

     And you wonder why I wish we had Mounites like we had in the 60’s, well let me tell you in the 60’s people really didn’t feel that their life was in jeopardy when they were stopped/confronted/questioned/arrested by a member.

     Should you want to dispute my last statement about the 60’s lets refer back to the death of Robert Dziekanski at YVR.

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     D — 2010.12.13 @ 00:43 —

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    In case you did not know, there are provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada that the judges HAVE to consider Native heritage in their deliberation on sentencing. He did NOT have a choice. After all the years this has been in place, you should know this. I refer you to the applicable sections in the CCC and YCJA outlined here:

    http://www.legalaid.on.ca/en/getting/aboriginal_identify.asp

    Which in part reads:

    “The Criminal Code of Canada addresses over-representation of Aboriginal people in the Canadian criminal justice system in Section 718.2 (e), which recognizes the need to consider additional factors when sentencing an Aboriginal offender. Section 38 (2)(d) of the Youth Criminal Justice Act is about sentencing principles that apply to young Aboriginal offenders.”

    You can complain all you wish but that is the LAW as it stands today. And that is just the Criminal Code.

    You probably believe that the RCMP organization is in full control of their ability to fire and sanction people according to their wishes. Thus your penchant for believing every officer gets special treatment. Delve into this case where the RCMP suspended two persons, wanted these two individuals fired, subsequently did fire them, eventually suspended their pay, and then after the various court proceedings, millions of dollars (probably) and several years had the noted outcome. After you read this you may have a better appreciation for the mountain that the organization has to climb to actually get rid of someone. Everybody it seems wanted the two fired.

    http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/en/2007/2007fc543/2007fc543.html

    The RCMP acted exactly how you would like them to in this case and you can read the outcome. What you will not read is the state of the ongoing civil actions for reparations initiated by the two.

    Miscreants who broke into your house and stole your personal items used to go to prison in this country at one time too. The ability of the RCMP to hire, fire, discipline, and otherwise govern its human resources is not even remotely the same as it was in the past. For better or worse, its what we made it along with the rest of society.

    Getting back to Mr. Wilson, how the court can impose a lifetime ban on alcohol is another puzzlement. That condition either sets up the appeal or sets him up for certain failure.

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    Deepthroat — 2010.12.12 @ 00:57 —

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      I am confused when you question the courts being able to ban this man from consuming alcohol for life. Why not, obviously he has a sickness and the only way to treat it is to NEVER drink again.

      I will await the glacial pace the internal discipline will take and please lets not use the oxymoron that he may be “dismissed” as that statement is laughable.

      It would do the RCMP good PR to stop making outlandish statements that its member face dismissal ever.

      The RCMP has become a political force and with all their politicall clout has failed to have their policial friends make changes that would be to the benefit of the force. Too bad there is no one that has the gumption to facilitate change through whatever means they need to take politically.

      Another thing is possibly the RCMP should uphold the law and refrain from trying to make new laws.

      Poorly-rated comment. Do you Like or Dislike: 32  45

      D — 2010.12.12 @ 15:43 —

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    Interesting that a person who is found guilty in a court is still able to collect his pay from the RCMP while the process of internal discipline is being considered. We all know that the internal process is comparable to watching the movement of glaciers.

    The disturbing thing about the case being discussed was CBC radio said the judge took into consideration the man’s native heritage when sentencing.

    I guess the rule of equal justice for all is somehow lost in the verdict. All these years I guess I was under the misconception of equal justice for all.

    We have all been shown that LEO’s get special treatment, this seems according to the CBC report taking unequal justice to a new level.

    Poorly-rated comment. Do you Like or Dislike: 35  49

    D — 2010.12.11 @ 15:20 —

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    There is no “cost recovery” involved in suspension without pay. It is as it states, suspended from your work and not getting paid. It can only be instituted in the more serious cases that can be justified in a court.

    Standard action in all cases? Surely you are joking? There is a small issue at work here which is called the presumption of innocence. If you suspended every officer without pay in every instance with no legal review, not only would it not pass muster with the Charter, you open the organization to a substantial lawsuit especially if the charges are not proven. Think about it for minute. You remove the persons livelihood for 2 to 3 years it takes for an adjudication, and then charges are stayed, or the person is acquitted. In this time, with no income, they lose their house or other assets plus ancillary hardships. Firstly is that fair and secondly how much are the reparations going to cost?

    Perhaps you are of the mind that police officers should not be entitled to any protections under the Charter? Do you think that it should not apply to them?

    You must also remember that if the person has an addiction, you cannot fire them for this affliction without providing reasonable assistance and guidance. If you can you should read the following especially the part that defines disabilities:
    http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:slGBlpfMBE0J:www.ofl.ca/uploads/library/disability_issues/ACCOMMODATION.pdf+is+alcoholism+a+disability+by+law+in+canada&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgeC1coVMMmKIFOSAOdhCPd0AKpeWyEc3dPQSoVcr8vRdbTC_PIqBw5JSckXXVhM7p2-6VWnHYy92hUG1NilprB6OSHY8W9otXTJuh-7nnTpEHnFFOGIRYk4NE9YRS-cUprGrnS&sig=AHIEtbTsjcF7AAuLuynUCVDfCy6Ag0onAg

    If you are able to make your way through that and understand the underlying tenet, you will then be able to see with more clarity why some of these situations occur in the fashion that they do. The media is not want to educate, just titillate. Do some research.

    Poorly-rated comment. Do you Like or Dislike: 30  37

    Deepthroat — 2010.12.10 @ 14:44 —

    • Yes I know this, but you would fire without pay the ones where the evidence warrants it and the iffy cases you let the courts decide.

      To be afraid to fire someone because of fear is not all that good either. If you operated this way with the public everyone would get off.

      On the other side of things paying someone for three years for a Criminal charge while the whole things is dragged through the court system is also as foolish and abusive, isn’t it.

      Hot debate. What do you think? 29  26

      RMR — 2010.12.11 @ 16:59 —

13. This looks like a very unsualy case, at least they are not paying this officer, taht should help recover some of the cost. When it comes to the public it’s more costly but in this case there seems to be some savings.

    Maybe this should now be the standard action on all cases involving criminal charges against police officers?

    Hot debate. What do you think? 29  26

    RMR — 2010.12.10 @ 09:48 —

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      RMR I agree this should possibly be the minimum sentence but the CBC Radio news story gave a detail that is not in the print story here. I totally disagree with the other reason the CBC quoted and it is unfortunate the print story here did not state it.

      Poorly-rated comment. Do you Like or Dislike: 32  45

      D — 2010.12.10 @ 10:44 —

      • D; What did they reveal in the CBC Radio program that wasn’t mentioned in this article?

        It’s strange, you would think that if the CBC did both reports on the radio and in print that they should have come out the same way, so what do you make of this?

        Are you suggesting that this article may not have been writen by the CBC?

        Well-liked comment. Do you Like or Dislike: 21  12

        RMR — 2010.12.10 @ 20:48 —

14. Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    Your legal system at work with your tax dollars.

    Poorly-rated comment. Do you Like or Dislike: 18  30

    Deepthroat — 2010.12.9 @ 20:21 —

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    I just heard this story on CBC Radio and they went into alot more detail on the sentencing and what was taken into consideration….it was rather disturbing and I hope more of you heard it.

    Really makes you wonder about justice.

    Poorly-rated comment. Do you Like or Dislike: 33  43

    D — 2010.12.9 @ 15:05 —

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